Pain, Purpose, & Using Movement to Heal with Dr. Mike Yasson
IN THIS EPISODE, WE DISCUSS:
•Where was Mike Yasson born and raised?
•Personal Training vs. Physical Therapy
•How to be a well rounded athlete
•Problems in the fitness/sports industry
•Unhealthy narratives in the movement industry
•Designing the program that is right for YOUR body
•Psychosomatic correlations of pain in the body
•Does pushing thru pain block you from connecting to your emotional spectrum?
•Can pushing thru pain can affect your romantic relationship later on in life?
•Moving the needle forward in healthcare
•The connection between emotional pain & physical pain
•A coach's responsibility to athletes & their longevity
•Where Big League Performance was born?
•Dr. Mike’s “AHA moment” while working with professional athletes
•Cami’s dream about Dr. Mike & his wonderful wife Megan
•Big League’s proactive approach to physical therapy & wellness
•Why do men have so many aches and pains once they turn 30?
•Sleep & meditation for physical & mental recovery
•Dr. Mike’s self-care routine & social media tips
•Scranton, PA & Joe Biden
•Dr. Mike’s experience with the COVID vaccine
•Future vision for Big League Performance
•Working with @bigleagueperformandrehab virtually
•Being “Hot Dog Mike”
Podcast Transcipt
Cami: Welcome, Dr. Mike. I know you don't like to be called doctor, but I'm going to call you that anyways. Welcome to the podcast.
Mike: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's not that I don't like Dr. Mike. I think it's one of those things when I'm in a little bit more of a personal scenario, I tend to use it because I think it's one of those things--we'll get more into this later on. It's just I think many people don't know physical therapists are doctors. So, it's like I got the degree, I got the student loan debt, I might as well use the title.
Cami: That's how I felt. I mean, I was thinking about that before you came on. I'm like, "Should one of my questions be, why doesn't he want to be called doctor all the time?" And then, I was like, "No, I'll just bring it up." But yeah, you went to school for seven years. I feel like you deserve the title.
Mike: Exactly, exactly. I think it's one of those things where a lot of people don't quite know like what goes into being a physical therapist. And yeah, it's seven years, it's bachelor's degree, plus three years of grad school. And yeah, you come out with your doctorate. So, you might as well use the title. I think it's a pet peeve of mine within the PT industry where, yeah, people--there are people who have their bachelor's degrees who went to school in the '80s and '90s, and then people with their master's in the early 2000s. And then, really ever since 2010 or so, it's been a shift to the doctoral degree. And I think overall, it's been good for the PT profession, but I think that there's still a little bit of a confusion because I think PTs as a whole don't do a good job of marketing for themselves. So, people just think that it's like, "Oh, PTs. It's for when grandma falls down the stairs or after I tear my ACL." And there's a lot more that goes into it than that.
Cami: Yeah. Well, so you run Big League Performance and Rehab, which I always think of as like the best of both worlds because you're physical therapy, but you're also athletic performance and personal training, which--to have a personal trainer or someone that gives you personal training movements to then also be a doctor is very impressive, and that's the PT that I want.
Mike: Right. I mean, I think it makes sense because when you look at traditional physical therapy, it only gets you to a certain point. And for some people, sure, that's fine. Like the people who say, "I want my knee to stop hurting." Alright. Is that your only goal? Yes. Alright, fine. Maybe traditional PT might be what's best for you, but for the person who has a goal, whether it's, "I want to get back to running, I want to get back to doing CrossFit, I want to be able to play with my kids, I want to be your runner for the rest of my life." That's where that little extra bit comes into play where you can only do so many clamshells and glute bridges before--you're like, "What the hell am I doing here?"
Cami: Yeah, yeah. So, taking it back a little bit because we are going to get more into Big League and all the amazing components of your business, but where were you born and raised?
Mike: So, I was originally born in New Jersey, grew up on Long Island though. I grew up out east a little bit in Stony Brook, Stony Brook University, and I was one of the few non-blacks bros out on Long Island. For anyone who knows about Long Island, it's like the lacrosse capital of the world. I was a baseball bro.
Cami: A baseball bro. And did you play baseball in college?
Mike: Yeah, yeah. So, I played all through high school, and then I went on to play four years at the University of Scranton.
Cami: Ah, okay. Well, we'll get into that because [00:04:04 unin] in the office and those are two things that I care about today.
Mike: Don't we all.
Cami: So, baseball was your sport. Was that your only sport, or did you venture into other seasons as well?
Mike: I think growing up, I tried a whole bunch of different sports. There was a time when I played a little bit of soccer. I played basketball up through my sophomore year of high school. I ran some indoor track. But baseball was always the main focus. And at a certain point, I think it was my sophomore year is when I realized that this is my sport, this is the sport that I want to focus on. So, baseball is always the one, but there are always other sports in the background. And I think that's a big part of like--making good athlete is having that ability to play multiple sports, not just the single focus that you see in new sports today where it's just like everyone--you start playing only baseball at the age of seven and you play year-round until you're 18. So, I think that well-rounded background I think was definitely an advantage.
Cami: Yeah. Well, it's like the Michael Jordan, like, yeah, he was really good at basketball, but he was also a good baseball player, right?
Mike: Exactly. I mean, everyone knows Michael Jordan's one of, if not, the best athlete of all time. I mean, he walked off the NBA court and right into the double A, the minor leagues with the Chicago White Sox. And he put together a decent year, having not played since--oh, god, I think it was like early high school. I think he even played like varsity baseball. He walked right in and he held his own for most of the season there. And there was an interesting documentary, 30 for 30 ESPN, did was Jordan rides the bus, and it goes through that whole season and his struggles to go from the superstar he was to then just another minor leaguer. It was really interesting.
Cami: Yeah. I was a big "Space Jam" fan, so that is--
Mike: [00:06:03 unin], right?
Cami: That is the one thing I was always like, "Whoa, baseball [00:06:08 unin]." So, going back to the sports fitness industry--because you cross over between both in your practice. And we'll get more into that later, but what do you think is the biggest problem right now in the fitness sports industry?
Mike: Oh, man, oh, man.
Cami: I know it's a loaded question, but it's--
Mike: I mean, how much time do we have here, right? I think a lot of it, it comes down to the narratives that are perpetuated within the fitness industry. I think that's the biggest thing. I mean, you see it in the PT world, you see it in the fitness world, health fitness medicine, whatever world you want to see. I think there's some just harmful narratives out there that go back to--that like you need to make drastic changes, you need to cut this out of your diet, you need to exercise six times a week to extra two hours a day. There's so many harmful narratives out there and I think we've given a platform to the people that maybe aren't necessarily the best people to have a platform. And as a result, things take on a life of their own. And as a result, yeah, I think there are a lot of harmful narratives out there that I'm fighting only one person. It's only one person, but if we can start to raise that awareness and start to get more people out talking about these narratives and realizing that when you squat, your knees can go over your toes.
Running is not bad for you. Pain is a normal part of the human experience. We're supposed to feel pain. These are just a couple of those narratives that are out there being pushed. What's her name? Jillian Michaels. She just had something the other day about protein being bad for your body that she had out there. I watched it and you're like, "This woman is on national TV, she's got national spotlight on her, millions of followers on social media," and it's like she's telling you not to eat protein. It's like, "What?"
Cami: Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because a lot of what I end up working with people on is filtering through the noise because people come to me and be like, "I have no idea what to eat." And I'm like, "It's not a surprise that you don't because there are so many active narratives going around there like, 'Yeah, I'd be confused, too.'"
Mike: Right. That's the thing. There's so much on social media. I mean, now in this world we live in today, you have so much information at the tip of your fingers that we've never had before. It's good and bad because, yeah, there are a lot of fear-mongering people out there and there are also a lot of people who put out good content and are actually helping people and moving the needle forward. So, it's kind of a double-edged sword there because you're getting more than ever, but sifting through the BS, I mean, that's really the big issue here, and how do you find that out? That's the tough thing.
Cami: Yeah. It's interesting because you see people being super polarizing and I think it's like a marketing tactic, right? Like, if you are strongly opinionated, you're going to have one market of people that really like that. And so, it's a good way to get people to follow you, but it's also can be irresponsible.
Mike: Yeah. I think absolutism sells. That's basically what it comes down to, because people want to be told like, "This is bad for me. This is good for me. This is a herniated disc. This is a torn labrum." They want to know exactly what's going on, exactly what's good, exactly what's bad, and that in reality, it's not reality. That ends up more often than not--there was a professor I had back at Scranton and he is this guy from Greece, and he always said, "It depends." The way he said it was--I can't say it, but it depends and it just resonated all throughout, like it just keeps coming up again and again and again, and that's because it does depend. Some people with lower back pain, they do better with flexion-based exercises. Some people with lower back pain do better with extension-based exercises. Some people like to deadlift, some people like to squat. It always depends on what is best for the individual. There is no cookie-cutter approach to fitness, to health, wellness.
Cami: I love that, too, because a lot of what I have to tell people when we start working on a plan with them is we really need to communicate here because what works for other people might not work for you. So, your feedback and your figuring out like seeing if this resonates with you or if your intuition says yes, it matters because it might not work for you and it might really work for you.
Mike: Yeah. Doing a little research, I think, is always important, especially nowadays with COVID, and vaccines, and all that shit. Like, you want--I can curse on here, right? That's cool.
Cami: Yeah.
Mike: Okay. I just want to make sure. But although that stuff is like, do your own research. I have people that send me the stupid shit on Instagram from just places that just aren't backed by research, and it's like, "Well, my brother's cousin said this about the vaccine." Well, what does your brother's cousin do? Are they a scientist? Are they a physician? No. Okay. Well, then I probably don't really care what they have to say about the vaccine. Part of it is people need to do their own research. If you want to learn about lower back pain, google lower back pain, start there. And then, read for yourself what makes sense. Go read a research article. I mean, that's the big ask, I feel like.
Cami: People are like WebMD or Proburst.
Mike: Exactly. That's the problem. Exactly. Because you go to WebMD and WebMD is like, "Oh, lower back pain. You should lay in bed." And it's like--no, no, no. So, trying to sift through that BS is the battle for sure.
Cami: Yeah. And thank God we have people like you to show us the way.
Mike: And yourself.
Cami: Yeah. It matters because it's hard. There's so much information.
Mike: And I think that's the beauty of what we both do, having the ability to work one-on-one with people for an extended period of time and explain this stuff to them and let people ask questions. You've worked with people who have chronic issues. I work with people with chronic issues. This is not always just like, "Oh, I threw my back out a week ago." It's maybe I've had 10 years of lower back pain or 10 years of stomach pain. And this way, they're able to tell you their story and you're able to work with them for exactly what they need. And I think while it's not necessarily the best financial pattern or financial plan, it's ultimately what's best for the client, and that's how we--again, I'm going to say this probably several times now, move the needle forward in healthcare overall.
Cami: Yeah. Absolutely. I like what you're saying earlier about--or you mentioned the pain and pushing through pain. And one thing I've been thinking a lot about, and I was talking to my father about this at Christmas, is being an athlete, he felt that he had to keep pushing through pain. Like, he was a cross-country runner in college and he pushed through pain, pushed your pain. And so, when it became his emotional spectrum, he had blocked off--my dad, hopefully, he won't listen to this, but he blocked off a lot of those feelings because that was what you had to do when you were an athlete and just keep going, keep pushing through.
Mike: Right.
Cami: I would look at that because now, it can be a disservice when you're in like a romantic relationship. Maybe you're not as connected to your emotional spectrum. And so, I think a lot about that with athletes of like, what happens once you're done being an athlete, when you've pushed through the pain your entire career? How does that affect your personal relationships?
Mike: That's interesting. I think it can affect it on a whole variety of ways, and I think they can both affect each other each way because I mean, all that stuff plays into why we hurt. There's this YouTube video I love from a pain scientist from Australia, Lorimer Moseley, and it's all about why we hurt. And it goes into more than just a biomechanical issue. There's a whole bunch of other neurological things that go into it in terms of like past medical history, current situation, stress level, diet, personal family beliefs about pain. All these things tie into why we hurt. And it's not just a simple biomechanical issue that I think most of us wish it could be. And I think having pain then it affects the rest of everything else on the other side because if you're constantly in pain, and not happy, and miserable, it perpetuates this chronic pain cycle that we talk about where you hurt your back, maybe you don't necessarily take care of your back, you become depressed because you can't work out. It just keeps this cycle going of where you're not doing anything, and as a result, you get stuck in that cycle.
Cami: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Do you ever find that people have like depression or anxiety lessons after working with you because they've worked through their pain which was causing them other symptoms?
Mike: Big time. And also, part of it is while we're not therapists, certain times, we have to wear that hat and be able to talk with people about what they have going on in their life. There was one person I worked with years ago who was a young college student. He was trying to take all these credits at GW so he could graduate early. And he always came in, he was never happy, and it seemed like he was very focused on graduating early, getting a job, making money because he thought that was like what life was all about. And he was really into working out and lifting, and he's pretty big, strong kid, and he hurt his pec, hurt his chest bench pressing. And we work through all these things in terms of trying to gradually reload them, calm it down, build it back up. We did dry needling. We tried every trick in the book, basically.
And it was interesting at one point because this was during the summer. He took like a family vacation down to Charleston, and he came back, and I saw him like a couple days after he came back and he's like, "I felt great the entire time I was there, but then as soon as I got back to my desk on Monday morning, the pain was back." And I was like--well, maybe this isn't necessarily just a pec strain. And like, how can we start looking at other things that go into it? And how can we manage other things? That's the tricky thing. Sometimes that's where we do have to refer out to some sort of mental health person because I think--we can talk through things with people to a point and help people see that, like, "Hey, you're struggling with stress. Well, let's add some meditation in it. How are you sleeping? Are you sleeping?" Things like that, ultimately, or what we can--I guess non-manual interventions or non-traditional interventions that people don't necessarily talk about. And these are interventions that because we have that time to work one-on-one with people, we're able to actually go into with.
Cami: Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because if I have people that are having trouble healing or whatever their goal is, I have to dig a little deeper. And sometimes it can be like, "Oh, well, everything is perfect in my life, but my job is super out of alignment with what I actually want to do in life. And I'm not living my truest purpose, and that is why my body feels not well." And so, it's just interesting because I really do believe that has such a big part of like pain, anxiety, depression. Those are our compass. Those are our navigation system to show us that something isn't right and you want to dig a little deeper because life's not meant to be lived in pain.
Mike: Pain is an evolutionary mechanism. It's why our cavemen ancestors--why we don't play in fire like our cavemen ancestors. We learn and adapt from that and it's one thing, one tool amongst many as to why we've progressed to society because we know that it's not good to hit our hand with a hammer or put our hand in a fire because that's going to hurt. So, it's an evolutionary mechanism. So, every time someone says like pain is not good, I'll always like to talk about pain as more like a warning sign for potential tissue damage. So, you know like, okay, if I, like I said, put my hand on a hot stove, I know it's going to hurt. So, that's why you automatically pull away so that you don't burn.
Cami: Yeah. I can't remember what I was reading. About a couple years ago, I was reading this thing about how pain is a huge catalyst for behavior modification, and I found that so interesting because it really--I mean, obviously, it makes sense. When people are in pain, they're more apt to change because they want to get out of the pain.
Mike: Right, 100%. I mean, that makes total sense where I think people will--I always go back to the hand on the stove where they are automatically going to pull their hand away from that hot stove just because they know exactly what's going to happen. Or same with like bending over to pick something up off the ground. And as soon as they feel that twinge in their lower back, they immediately come back up and now they're afraid to go back down.
Cami: Yeah, yeah. So, when it comes to coach and player relationship, do you think that when it comes to professional sports, or even kids getting younger and younger, sports are seeming a little more intense, do you think that it's the coach's responsibility to, I don't know, explain to the player that you--or like, to what extent is it the coach's responsibility to direct them into the pain or out of the pain?
Mike: I think it's a big responsibility on the coach's part, especially when you talk about youth sports when they're just kids and they're still growing and developing. I think that's a big thing that ultimately can affect them for the rest of their life mentally and physically. And I think what happens, coaches have that duty to the athletes, as well as the athletes' parents, to make sure they have their best interests in mind and it's not just all about trying to get to the next level, trying to win this game, trying to get a scholarship because I guarantee you, there's no college coaches that care about how hard you throw at 10 years old. No one cares about that. Or what your record was when you were 11 years old. Those are things that the coach has a duty to their players and the players' families to take care of them. So, for sure, I think they need to be aware of those things.
Cami: Yeah. I hear about people getting cortisone shots seemingly more often than we should. And I just think of the long-term damage when it comes to concussions in football. Is it a disservice to put someone back in the game when they're clearly really injured and potentially could have long-term facts?
Mike: Yeah. Exactly. And it's one of those things you've seen before with this whole--win-at-all-cost mentality. And that's what happens is ultimately, the individual gets shortchanged. And I think there is a difference between professional sports in youth amateur sports where the professional athlete is an adult, and they have the ability to make the decision. If they want to play injured, then they can play injured.
Cami: Yeah.
Mike: Now, that being said, talk about like concussions. You're not in the mental state to make that decision on your own. So, I think that's why the NFL has started to implement all these measures so that people--that doesn't necessarily happen as much because, yeah, it is definitely something that we need to keep an eye on for sure.
Cami: Yeah, because I know athletes just have a drive that can push through all bodily symptoms or signals of like, "Hey, maybe you should push back a little bit." And that's like, "You're not going to take me away. I'm going to keep going."
Mike: Yeah. No, 100% because I think even whether it's the regular-season game in the early part of the season, it's a meaningless game and people have this tendency to want to just keep playing. And ultimately, maybe a month later in a more serious game, you're not able to play because you pushed yourself or the coach pushed you through a not as intense or important scenario.
Cami: Yeah. And that seems like a really important coaching moment of like, "Hey, right now is not the most important game for you to be 100% for you to be pushing the limits. Hold off and wait because I'm going to need you later on this season."
Mike: Yeah. I think it comes back to keeping an even-keel approach to these things because I think it's easy to get caught up in the moment and be like, "I want to play a coach." Or even, "I don't want to play." And I think having this even-keel approach where you don't get too high, you don't get too low, and you look at the situation for what it is. It's important how bad the injury, how bad the pain. And all these things go into it, and then you can make a real well-informed decision that ultimately has the athlete's best interest at hand.
Cami: Yeah. And so, moving into your business a little bit. Big League. So, you were one of the New York Yankees Foundation--or would it be foundation or team?
Mike: Organization.
Cami: Organization. That's the word I was looking for. And you saw that a lot of players were getting this big-league treatment, and it wasn't the treatment you were seeing people outside of the big league receiving. And so, can you tell me a little bit more about that experience and what your ah-ha moment was?
Mike: Yeah. It's one of those things where--so after my junior year at Scranton, I had the opportunity to be the assistant strength coach with the AAA Yankees Minor League team right there in Scranton. And it was an amazing experience to work with these kind of athletes in this kind of organization, even though I am a Mets fan. Being around these athletes, being around this organization, I saw that there were these major leaguers who would come in, top prospects who would come in, and they were getting this extra treatment, they were getting this extra attention in the batting cage, extra attention in the weight room, extra attention in the training room from the athletic trainers.
And it just seemed like there's always this extra--they got a little bit extra, a little bit extra. And guys that weren't necessarily top-level prospects or major leaguers were always like, "Oh, he's big league, he's big league. He gets the big-league treatment." And it was a joke in the clubhouse, but it resonated with me like, "Hey, they're getting this treatment. Why can't I bring this treatment to everybody else?" And that was really the ah-ha moment with Big League was seeing these guys get this high-level treatment and being like--and then conjunctively, I was also working at a physical therapy clinic and in network physical therapy clinic where I wasn't being treated very well as an intern and I didn't think patients necessarily were being treated to the best of their ability as well, and I just didn't enjoy the experience and actually made me sour on physical therapy for a little bit. And I said, "This is how people should be treated. This shouldn't be just for professional athletes. Everybody should have the ability to do this."
Cami: Yeah. I like that because you see something that's not what you think should be standard, and then you make it better. And I feel like that is what entrepreneurs do. They're like, "Oh, this is how it is and I have the drive to make it better."
Mike: A hundred percent. I think taking something that was already there and already in existence, and I think the traditional physical therapy model has been the same at this point decades. You walk into a traditional PT clinic and it's the same like three or four exercises, you get the ultrasound, you get the massage, you get an ice pack or a heat pack, they go tell you to ride the bike. And then, you stand in the corner doing exercises while you're either by yourself or you're hanging out with an intern who's hungover from the night before. Is that really the best quality medical care that you can get? And I'd like to think the answer is no.
Cami: No. And I'm glad you recognized that and you've created what you've created. It's so funny I just remembered my dream last night and you were in it.
Mike: Oh, okay.
Cami: We were at your facility down in the navy yard.
Mike: Yup.
Cami: Your facility is one half CrossFit gym and one half your office and practice. And so, in the dream, we were--because I went through your personal Instagram, which didn't know existed, which was--
Mike: Yeah. That's been a secret for years.
Cami: Yeah. [00:30:08 unin] your beautiful wife. And so, in the dream, I was having both of you on the podcast. But there was also some beer-chugging going on, which is weird, I don't know where that came from.
Mike: Oh, because that was on my story the other day. I had been chugging a beer on New Year's Eve. I said, "Goodbye 2020," and then I chugged the beer. That's probably why that was in--
Cami: I must have seen that. But I have really fun dreams, so it was very entertaining. But in the dream, I was trying to do a pull-up and I was like, "Mike, I've just gotten so much worse at pull-ups during the pandemic." And you were like, "Don't worry, I got you."
Mike: Yeah. There you go. Oh, my god, that's so funny. And what was Megan, just like standing there chugging a beer while we were [00:30:59 unin]?
Cami: You were actually doing this really cute thing where you had your hands interlocked, and you chugged a beer at the same time.
Mike: Oh, one of those, like these guys? Okay. I know what you're talking about, yeah. I'm sure she'll appreciate that, too.
Cami: This is a fun couple. I want to hang out with them.
Mike: Yeah. I like to think we're fun. Yeah.
Cami: This is so hilarious. I don't know where I got that from, but--
Mike: Oh, my god.
Cami: Happy 2020.
Mike: Happy 2021.
Cami: That's right. I keep doing that. I keep doing 2020 or 2022.
Mike: Oh, interesting. Yeah. In my journal this morning, I wrote 2020, and I was like, "Oh, wait." So, yeah. No, I'm still there. I'm still there, too, don't worry.
Cami: It's okay. We'll slowly get there. So, Big League is different.
Mike: Yes.
Cami: And give people a little--just say I want to come see you. How does the process work? What goes on?
Mike: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing with Big League is it goes back to changing the narrative again of what physical therapy really is and really ultimately redefining that physical therapy experience. I think it's always with this mindset focused towards reactive treatment. "I hurt my hip, I hurt my knee, I hurt my shoulder." And what we want to do is shift that to more of a proactive approach to physical therapy, and proactive approach to just overall wellness. And as we shift more towards like a lifestyle therapy brand versus just being your physical therapy clinic where you hurt yourself and you go in--and sure. I mean, majority of the people we work with are people who come to us because of an initial injury, but they're all people who are motivated and have goals.
And ultimately, one phrase I started using recently, or cliché, is "health is the new wealth." And people view that I think now more than ever, like it's less about material possessions and it's more about experiences. And people want to be around to experience things long term, whether you're able to keep running or you're able to get back to doing CrossFit with all your friends or be able to play with your kids, have a catch with your son. All these things I think people are starting to value more than the nicest car or working themselves to the bone and things like that. And that's the approach that we're going to now is trying to proactively help people prevent these injuries in the first place because it's one of those things where we can help you get out of pain, but wouldn't it be nice if we could prevent these things from happening in the first place?
And so, in a way that people work with a trainer, or a coach, or dietitian, nutritionist, proactively, we want you to start thinking about physical therapy as one of your things that you do monthly to make sure that you're staying on top of things. And it doesn't have to necessarily be something where you are going in every week or multiple times a week. It's maybe just once a month where you come in and we are able to do some hands-on manual therapy, and we're able to look at what your exercise program is like. We can update your exercises that we want to give you. And we can talk about your training program, whether you have one or not, whether you should be on one. And that way, again, it's so that we maximize your health and wellness so that you can keep doing the things you want to do long term.
Cami: Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. And one thing that I've been noticing is--I'm dating again, so--
Mike: Congrats.
Cami: Thank you. But the range of the men seemingly, once they hit 30, have all these aches and pains. Personally, I am someone who is very active. I can do a lot, like I just have a lot of energy and I'm like, "I don't know if people can keep up with me." So, actually, every time you send me an email, I'll forward it to like a friend and I'll be like, "You need to go see--"
Mike: Thank you, thank you. Yes.
Cami: So, I hear about these aches and pains and I need a partner who's going to be able to keep up with me for a lifetime, and I feel like you're the answer to that.
Mike: Well, there you go. I am glad to be actively involved in your dating life. I love it. I just had Sharon Kim on my podcast, "Move the District," who I know was a guest here recently, and we were going into that whole same idea about the dating scene in DC here. So, that's definitely funny to hear.
Cami: Yeah. It's great because I can be woo-woo, too. And so, I'm like, "Well, they might not be into my other intuitive that it's [00:36:06 unin] figure out what their astrology is and direct them in the 5D." But they'll definitely be down with you.
Mike: Well, I think it's one of those things where I think more often than not, people are in pain. The degree of pain is always different, and it's something they want to act on or invest in. That's the difficult thing. I think one of my favorite things is when I go to a workshop, we're doing virtual workshops now, and--one of the first questions I always ask is, I go, "Who here is completely pain-free? Who here is completely pain-free?" And it's crickets because everyone's got something. Everyone's got something, and every once in a while, maybe some asshole might raise their hand.
But for the most part, everyone's got something. And whether it was funny, I had done this workshop last year pre-COVID at--what was it? Nuboxx over by Union Station. And I remember it was a shoulder workshop, and we're going through it, and you know what, boxing tends to have a little extra stress on the hands and the wrists. And so, at the end of the workshop, I go, "Who here has wrist pain?" And literally, every single hand shot up. And I was like, "Well, maybe we shouldn't have been doing a shoulder workshop and we should have been doing a wrist workshop," because I think everyone's got something. It's just a matter of how badly is it affecting you and do you want to do something about it.
Cami: Totally. So, what is your most effective recovery tool in your toolbox? Like, the one that you like the most.
Mike: Oh, I love that you asked me this question because it's going to be such a boring answer because everyone asks me this question. Everyone asks, "How can I recover quickly? How can I recover more quickly?" And it's like, "Just go to sleep. Just fucking go to sleep. Get off the couch, turn Netflix off, and go to sleep." That's it. If you're not sleeping at least seven and a half hours a night, you're probably not doing it right. And I'm talking about seven and a half hours of actual time of sleep, not just seven and a half hours in bed. That's the number that we try to drive home with all of our clients, is like, you should be sleeping seven and a half hours a night. Is that always realistic? No, but that's the number we try to strive for.
It's one of those things where people are like, "Oh, I need to foam roll more. I need the Theragun myself. I need a Hypervolt. I need to get dry needling. I need to get the recovery boots or cryo." And it's like, "Sure. All of those have their place, sure." The way I view recovery is basically like a pyramid. And the foundation of that pyramid is sleep. That's the number one thing is sleep. And if you're not sleeping well, everything else, forget it. All that stuff comes on top of it because then for me, the way I level is it's sleep, then it's nutrition, which obviously plays a huge role. And then, on top of that comes load management. How are you managing your load? Are you working out two times a day? Are you running 80 miles a week? When's the last time you had a recovery week? Do you take days off? And all those things play into it.
And so, if you're able to optimize sleep, if you're able to optimize nutrition, if you're able to optimize your load management, then all those fun, cool, sexy recovery tools come into play. Until that point, you're just doing nothing, essentially. And again, those recovery tools are all passive interventions that basically feel good, in my opinion. And like, sure. Could everybody use a little feel good? Absolutely. But is that what's going to fix your lower back pain? No. Is that going to help your strained hamstring? No. So, ultimately, we need to look at those other things first before we delve into all the fancy recovery gadgets.
Cami: Totally. And of course, we want to buy something that costs hundreds of dollars to fix us instead of just the most accessible pool in the toolbox, which is good old quality sleep.
Mike: Right. Exactly. It's one of those things where people would rather sit on their couch and they would just watch Netflix or do whatever and just avoid actually going to sleep. And there's one book I love called "Killing Comfort." It's actually an audiobook by one of my mentors. And the whole idea is just like getting comfortable being uncomfortable, and doing these uncomfortable things were like, yeah, it's comfortable to sit on your couch and watch Netflix for five hours a night and be like, "Oh, I guess it's midnight, I guess I should go to bed," and then you get up at seven o'clock the next morning after taking an hour to get to sleep. And maybe you wake up in the middle of the night to go pee or whatever. And as a result, you're not getting the best quality sleep. And then, you're like, "Well, why does my back hurt?"
Cami: Yeah, yeah. So, when it comes to the Theragun--because I have one and it's fun. I don't use it too often, but--
Mike: [00:41:39 unin] one. It's fun.
Cami: Yeah. I had a massage therapist tell me that it's actually not good because it breaks down--it's like--I don't know what he was saying. But he was saying it wasn't good, which in my mind, I was like, "Is he just saying it's not good because he wants me to come for the massage instead of doing the Theragun?" But what is your take on that long term? Because we obviously don't know all the long-term effects of things like cryo even though I love it, like infrared sauna.
Mike: Right. It's all got its place. All that stuff is cool, don't get me wrong. But my big thing with the Theragun is how they market it. Again, going back to the narratives in the fitness industry here is how they market it. They market it as the answer to chronic pain. And they say, "With this Theragun, you'll never be in pain again." And it's just flat out not true. Again, it has its place, and sure, if your shoulder hurts and you Theragun your shoulder for five minutes, it'll feel better. Absolutely. Is it going to make the changes that need to happen in your shoulder to get you out of pain completely? No, no. But what it can do though is decrease your level of pain just like a massage, and ultimately then allow you to do more movements. But by itself, it's not the answer.
Cami: Totally. So, you help a lot of people, you have a lot of athlete, you help a lot of common folk. What is your favorite self-care ritual or routine to keep yourself optimized? Because you give a lot.
Mike: I am really big into meditating. I try to meditate most nights. I would say weeknights. I'm really good at meditating weekends, hit or miss. But I try to meditate at night because--again, going back into sleep, it's probably typical for any entrepreneur, your head hits the pillow, and immediately, millions of things start popping into my head. Email this, calls this, see this patient, blah, blah, blah. And next thing you know, you've been laying in bed for an hour and you just can't turn the brain off. And what I've found in terms of self-care really is meditation. And I use the Ten Percent app, and I feel like they have a lot of good guided meditations for sleep that Megan and I both use every night, or try to use most nights, which are effective.
Cami: Well, you know, I love that answer of course. That's a good one. I couldn't agree more and do have the same practice myself. Yeah, because you're like, "I don't want to be thinking of the thousand things that I should have gotten back to today."
Mike: Right, right, right. It's like how do you turn your brain off? There's that idea of the pillow test where you lay down and immediately, all the things that you have going on just come right into your head and you're like, "Shit." And so, how do you avoid that from happening? And for me, meditation, 100%.
Cami: Yeah. So, one thing that I didn't ask you earlier but I wanted to have you explain to the audience is when you started your business, you also started your Instagram account, and you were super consistent for 365 days. And I want you to talk about that a little bit because it really just shows how determined you were to make your dreams an actuality. And so, I think it's very expansive. So, I want you to explain to people what you did.
Mike: Thank you. Yeah. It's funny. I don't think of it as like this huge monumental task, but I mean, yeah, it was 365 days pretty much straight up posting. When I first started my account, I said, "I want to post every day for a year." And at the end of the year, I think I came in somewhere around 355 posts. There were a few days I missed with travel and hangovers and things like that. But for the most part, it was, yeah, posting on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays, batching content so that you had stuff. I remember, this is before I had even started Big League, I was going away on a family vacation and I knew I was going to be out of town for a week. I didn't have videos. It's just I needed content to push out onto Instagram.
So, I brought Megan into my old office with me on a Saturday or Sunday. God, I love the girl. And we record it--oh, god, I mean, it was probably six days' worth of content, and each video--it was probably like four or five videos within one video. So, we put out like 30, 40 videos just in that one afternoon. And that was the idea of like, how can we get all this stuff done even though we'll be traveling? It's like I want to get all these posts done. So, it was having the foresight to think ahead of time and plan out these videos. And then, also a part of it was also realizing that things that I think are basic common information are not common information to the average person. So, little basic exercises for neck pain or shoulder pain that I'm like, "Oh, that's a dumb easy exercise." It's like, "Oh, no. Actually, maybe not."
And so, putting simple things like that, like elbow positioning with push-ups, that's a post, and finding these little tidbits to put out there and be consistent with it. And then, also, knowing what your audience wants, like the people that follow you, what do they want from you? Do they want videos? Do they want pictures? Do they want inspiration? Do they need self-help? Do they want motivation? What are they looking for from you? And for me, it's always been I've always gotten a better reaction, better engagement with these video posts that you'll see on my page. And so, I'll post a graphic or just like a picture, and the likes won't be as high, the comments won't be as high. So, I've learned to shift my post more towards what the people want. And that's I think really how the following grew, and also engaging with other like-minded people on the platform because Instagram wants to see you using their platform. So, you're posting regularly, you're commenting regularly, you're sharing other people's posts, people are sharing your posts. That's how you grow that following.
Cami: Yeah, yeah. It's always been very impressive to me though.
Mike: Thank you.
Cami: Thank you for sharing your secrets. You also have a podcast and I'm really curious who has been--you may not want to play favorites, but who has been your most illuminating conversation you've had this year during the pandemic times?
Mike: Well, obviously, you. I mean, number one right there. Come on, that's too easy, that's too easy. It's been such an awesome thing to do. With COVID this past year, it's really cut into our ability to socialize, and network, and interact with people that we would otherwise be able to do pretty freely and easily. And it's been a great way to reconnect with people, connect with new people. And yeah, I've gotten a chance to meet people all throughout the whole wellness fitness health space that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Thanks to "Move the District." So, I'd probably say one of the most impressive episodes I did was coming back to sleep again. I had a sleep physician on, Melody Hawkins. She's a freaking badass and it was probably--out of all the episodes, I mean, you know how the format of the show tends to be more conversational. She just came with some absolute knowledge bombs about sleep, and I thought that was just like a real informative episode where I think everybody could learn a lot from. It was funny. My producer, he even commented. He's like, "Wow. I learned a lot from that episode."
And so, that was a really great episode. Another great episode that I enjoyed recently was I worked with the guys--I had an episode with the guys from WeFitDC, and they're a local group pretty much based out of Ward 7 and Ward 8 in DC here. And they're trying to bring health, fitness, wellness, to those underserved areas of DC. I think we talk a lot about how do we help those people, how do we bring that, and look at the numbers. It's like there's one commercial gym in Ward 7 and Ward 8. There's three grocery stores. And these guys are undertaking something pretty impressive to serve their community. They're local guys and they were really impressive as well. So, I think those are two episodes that really stand out to me.
Cami: Okay. Cool. I'm definitely going to check those out and we'll link them below so people can check them out, too. You went to school in Scranton, Pennsylvania, the home of Joe Biden and "The Office."
Mike: Yes.
Cami: Can you tell us a little bit about your experience in Scranton?
Mike: Oh, Scranton, the land of hopes and dreams. Yeah. I spent seven years in Scranton. It was four years of undergrad, plus three years of grad school, and yeah. I think people think about Scranton, not saying to you before we went live, about how people tend to think of Scranton as like this little backwards town. And really, it's like the fourth or fifth largest city in Pennsylvania. And so, there's a good amount of people there. It's one of those things where Scranton was actually the fourth choice school for me. I got rejected from my top three choices, and then Scranton was there for me.
And once I set foot on campus, I realized I didn't belong anywhere else. And yeah, it was an exciting time because, yeah, it was peak office time. Biden is--him and Obama went into office my sophomore year. So, it was a big time for Scranton. It was like this rejuvenation of this old coal mining town. And I think everyone probably has their Joe Biden story. And I guess mine is I never met Joe Biden, but we share the same favorite sandwich shop. There's this little hole in the wall place in Scranton in Greenridge called Hanks Hoagies, shout out to Hanks Hoagies, and it's in someone's basement essentially. I love it. And it's probably been there for, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 years. And you walk in and it's got like Hanks Hoagies customer of the year, and it's like I was there late 2000s there.
And 2008 was like Joe Biden customer of the year. And there's this whole big cardboard cut-out of him right there. And there's all this Joe Biden memorabilia. And then, whenever he would be in town for rallies or whatever, he would always buy his whole motorcade platters of sandwiches from Hanks Hoagies. And I think there was some Q&A on Twitter a few years back where people--someone asked him about his favorite sandwich, and he said, "Hanks Hoagies in Scranton, Pennsylvania." So, that's the place whenever I drive into Scranton to visit. I drive right there before I drive to my hotel and get a sandwich.
Cami: Like first up. I mean, do you feel like you should have been the customer of the year instead of Joe Biden?
Mike: If you were to ask my friends that--in 2008, no. But if you were to ask my friends that after, I don't know, the many years I spent going there, they would probably agree with you on that, that I should have been customer of the year. I was like ultimate Hanks Hoagies fan boy there. And that was before, not even taking into consideration the fact now that Joe Biden is going to become president, but I just love their sandwiches.
Cami: Well, you probably inspired Joe Biden to be a fan of Hanks Hoagies.
Mike: Exactly, exactly. I think it's one of those--could you always see them talking about his childhood home? And I'm pretty sure this place was around the corner from that childhood home.
Cami: Okay. So, because you're one of the few people I know that has gotten the COVID vaccine, what did it feel like, and did you get sick or have flu-like symptoms? I've heard might happen.
Mike: The vaccine, breaking news right here, play the important music right here. Yeah. No. I was lucky enough to get the vaccine on Saturday. This is Monday, so about 48 hours ago. And right, that makes sense, right, yeah, 40 hours ago. And I, at this moment, am still standing, living, breathing, walking. I have not grown any scales or a third arm. I have not turned into an alligator. It is safe. It is effective. It does its job. I had a little bit of soreness in my shoulder yesterday and the day before. I felt like the guy, when he jabbed me with the needle, I felt like he aggressively jabbed me with the needle. So, I think that's why it's sore more than anything, but I worked out this morning and it actually feels a lot better after that workout. So, I think I probably just needed to move it a little bit. But yeah, that was really the only side effect. I'm trying to think, like, did I get anything that was crazy? I didn't really have any fever, didn't really get too achy or tired. I had a little dry mouth on Saturday night, but I don't think that was from the vaccine. I don't know. So, that was it. So, yeah. Just some shoulder soreness. So, yeah. When you have the vaccine, the ability of the vaccine--go get vaccinated because it works, and this is how we end all this shit.
Cami: Yeah. Let's end the pandemic 2021.
Mike: Please, please.
Cami: So, the next level with Big League--I mean, I knew the next level prior to the pandemic, we had spoken about that, but has the pandemic changed any of that, or are you inspired with new ideas? What is your vision for 2021, 2022, 2023?
Mike: Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. I think the pandemic has changed. I mean, just about everybody's small business, or just business in general. And I think one of the biggest things obviously was our pivot to virtual sessions. When everything first happened, we didn't really know what was going on and we shifted the majority of our clients to virtual sessions, and it was very effective. It's one of those things where we're able to work with people inside their own homes and use what they have at home because they get the benefit of coming in for a session, and they get the hands-on treatment, and they get to lift heavy weights, and all that stuff. But what if they don't have access to that? Especially the pandemic when they couldn't go to another gym, it's like, what do they have at home? It was ultimately a battle of resourcefulness, and I think for everybody. One of my favorite analogy to handling COVID is basically--have you seen the movie "Forrest Gump?"
Cami: Yes.
Mike: I think I said this to you once before. Basically, this is the scene where they got the shrimp boat, and they're in the middle of that storm, and Lieutenant Dan is on top of the crow's nest there, and he's like, "Is that all you got? Is that all you got?" And then, they survived the storm and made out the other side where they were obviously successful. And I feel like that's what COVID's going to be, and it's basically turning into this like--well, I thought it was going to be like a one or two, three-month storm has turned into like a year-long storm. It's finding ways to be resourceful. And so, for us, the virtual sessions were a great way to do that. And in those sessions, it's things like, yeah, sure, you don't have a dumbbell, but you have a backpack, right? You have textbooks, you have gallons of laundry detergent, you have a bag of flour. Like, what can you do, what can you hold to add resistance? Or, how can we do a bodyweight exercise that's going to have the same effect?
So, it was definitely challenged our problem solving abilities a little bit, which I think is fun. So, that was in terms of like on the micro-level of things. But then on the macro side of things, I think with Big League is--we're based inside of District CrossFit and we have our own separate build-out, but we're still a part of that gym. And I think had you asked me a year ago, I saw Big League expanding from one gym to another gym to another gym. And the idea of having a physical therapist inside of a gym is like, in theory, a great idea because it's kind of like having a Chick-Fil-A in a mall, like you go where the people are. Exactly. And what I learned through COVID is ultimately, I don't want to rely on anybody but myself. And I think District CrossFit is doing well and they're going to make it through and everything, but I don't want to have to rely on someone else. I'd rather take everything onto my own plate and worry about our survival. That's why I think the next step for us is moving to our own standalone space, hopefully, at some point later this year.
Cami: That's exciting. Well, I'll definitely be keeping my eyes and ears open for that. To round this episode out, I'd love to know what is one thing that people don't know about you, exclusive Triggered to Life Podcast.
Mike: Ooh. One thing people don't know about me. Oh, here you go. My nickname in PT school was Hotdog Mike.
Cami: That is why I saw that reference on your Instagram.
Mike: There you go. Exactly, exactly. Do we have time for me to tell the Hotdog Mike story?
Cami: Yeah, absolutely.
Mike: So, basically, this goes back to my first year. So, I've always loved hotdogs, always been a big hotdog guy, just spicy brown mustard, that's it. Maybe some chopped raw onions, but always been a big hotdog guy. Freshman year--not freshman year, first year of PT school. We had our big PT formal and everyone gets all dressed up, you get drunk, you go out to the bar after, right? So, at the end of the night, I'm walking home by myself and my friend, who wasn't in PT school, pulls over to the side of the road as I'm walking around and he goes, "Get in. We're going to Sheetz." Do you know Sheetz?
Cami: Yes.
Mike: Yes. Gas station, right? So, we go to Sheetz at like 2:30 in the morning. I crushed two hot dogs, fantastic. Go home, wake up that Sunday morning just sick to my stomach, just devastated. I think realistically looking back on it, it's probably more from drinking than it was the two hotdogs, but at the time, it was like, "Oh, hotdogs." And so, that Sunday, we had some sort of test that we had to study for. And so, I'm in the library Sunday, just absolutely miserable. And then, fast forward to Monday morning, I'm telling these two girls in our lab the same story, and our professor is this old crusty guy. He's like standing behind the girls, just kind of like sitting there with his arms crossed, hand on his chin, just like taking the whole story in, and me not paying any attention to him. And I finished telling my story and he goes, "Hotdog Mike, huh," and just walks away, and we were all like, "What the fuck?" And then, I became Hotdog Mike.
And then, what solidified it was then at my white coat ceremony three years later, they called us up one by one on the stage to give us our white coats to our professors. The professors were all lined up on stage, and then we'd have to walk up to the professor with our white coat. And so, where they called me up, I had to walk past all of our professors. And so, I didn't just awkwardly walk past all the professors, I slapped them five. And then, I got to the professor with my white coat and I put it on. And then, that same old professor was standing next to the one that gave me my coat. He steps out of line into the whole entire ceremony of like, I don't know, 300, 400 people, goes, "And that's why we call him Hotdog Mike, folks." And it was just like, that was it, done, sold, I'm Hotdog Mike. And some of my friends and their siblings will still be like, "And that's why we call him Hotdog Mike." And then, I moved to DC, and I was telling Megan, my girlfriend, this story probably on our second date. This is like early date material. And she's like, "You were Hotdog Mike, I was Hotdog Meg." Three thousand miles away in California, she was Hotdog Meg because of her love for hotdogs as well. And so, Hotdog Mike and Meg, a match made in heaven, hotdog heaven.
Cami: Oh, my god, that warms my heart, and I love that.
Mike: I think our second date was at Ben's Chili Bowl.
Cami: I mean, you guys really were meant to be. That's why I saw you in that dream, chugging beers, interlocked hands, like you should have had a hotdog in the other hand.
Mike: We should have had a hotdog, yes, absolutely.
Cami: Well, thank you so much, Mike, for--Dr. Mike for coming on the podcast. It was so much fun talking to you. Thank you for the laughs and thank you for your expertise. People can find you on the internet where?
Mike: Yeah, bigleagueperformanceandrehab.com. It's a long URL, but type it all out, it'll be worth it, bigleagueperformanceandrehab.com. On Instagram, it's bigleagueperformandrehab, @bigleagueperformandrehab. And yeah, and those are our two spots, and then Move the District Podcast also out every Wednesday.
Cami: Amazing. Well, thank you. Have a great rest of your day.
Mike: Okay. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.